WEBVTT FILE 2 00:00:16.110 --> 00:00:18.090 >> I am James Day, general manager 3 00:00:18.090 --> 00:00:20.970 of KQED in San Francisco. 4 00:00:20.970 --> 00:00:23.930 The program you're about to see deals with the subject 5 00:00:23.930 --> 00:00:27.330 which is controversial, delicate 6 00:00:27.330 --> 00:00:30.780 and to some downright unpleasant. 7 00:00:30.780 --> 00:00:33.080 In dealing with this subject we were mindful of the fact 8 00:00:33.080 --> 00:00:35.160 that it is surrounded by a good deal 9 00:00:35.160 --> 00:00:38.550 of sensationalism and morbidity. 10 00:00:38.550 --> 00:00:41.110 We were, however, equally mindful of the fact 11 00:00:41.110 --> 00:00:43.960 that a problem, however, unpleasant in its proportions 12 00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:47.090 and natures does indeed exist. 13 00:00:47.090 --> 00:00:52.150 It is the nature of our social system, that the first step 14 00:00:52.150 --> 00:00:56.400 in the solution to a problem is a recognition of the problem, 15 00:00:56.400 --> 00:01:02.330 a gathering of the facts and a discussion of these facts. 16 00:01:02.330 --> 00:01:06.390 In our convictions about the nature of the problem 17 00:01:06.390 --> 00:01:09.720 and its importance, we discussed it with a great many leaders 18 00:01:09.720 --> 00:01:14.390 in the field of law, medicine and religion. 19 00:01:14.390 --> 00:01:18.320 We found that they corroborated our conviction about the problem 20 00:01:18.320 --> 00:01:22.600 and felt as we did that it needed to be discussed. 21 00:01:22.600 --> 00:01:24.400 Many of these people you will meet 22 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:26.440 in the minutes which follow. 23 00:01:26.440 --> 00:01:28.840 One of them, the chief legal officer of the State 24 00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:31.060 of California has written us a letter 25 00:01:31.060 --> 00:01:33.730 which I would like to read to you. 26 00:01:33.730 --> 00:01:37.220 He says the problem of homosexuality is age-old. 27 00:01:37.220 --> 00:01:40.330 In ancient Greece and Rome this condition was apparently 28 00:01:40.330 --> 00:01:42.920 accepted as a way of life. 29 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:45.940 In this country the opposite is true. 30 00:01:45.940 --> 00:01:49.050 In fact, it is hard to find any subject about which the feedings 31 00:01:49.050 --> 00:01:52.300 of society are as strong. 32 00:01:52.300 --> 00:01:53.410 With all of the revulsion 33 00:01:53.410 --> 00:01:56.480 of some people feel toward homosexuality, 34 00:01:56.480 --> 00:02:00.760 it cannot be dismissed by simply ignoring its presence. 35 00:02:00.760 --> 00:02:03.820 It is a subject that deserve discussion. 36 00:02:03.820 --> 00:02:07.230 We might just as well refuse to discuss alcoholism 37 00:02:07.230 --> 00:02:11.080 or narcotics addiction as to refuse to discuss this subject. 38 00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:14.590 It cannot be swept under the rug, it will not just go away 39 00:02:14.590 --> 00:02:18.790 by itself and quite possibly, an objective discussion 40 00:02:18.790 --> 00:02:20.340 of this condition might lead 41 00:02:20.340 --> 00:02:23.820 to a broader understanding of the subject. 42 00:02:23.820 --> 00:02:29.770 This program attempts to explore the problem of homosexuality, 43 00:02:29.770 --> 00:02:32.540 to cast light into an area 44 00:02:32.540 --> 00:02:36.680 in which the shadows have long been deep. 45 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:38.910 The letter is signed Stanley Mosk, 46 00:02:38.910 --> 00:02:41.910 Attorney General, State of California. 47 00:02:48.050 --> 00:02:49.600 >> Eighteen percent of all American men 48 00:02:49.600 --> 00:02:52.980 for at least three years during their adulthood have as much 49 00:02:52.980 --> 00:02:57.810 or more sexual experience with other men as with women. 50 00:02:57.810 --> 00:03:00.940 That's the estimate given by Dr. Alfred Kinsey in his book, 51 00:03:00.940 --> 00:03:03.990 Sexual Behavior in the Human Male. 52 00:03:06.060 --> 00:03:10.290 In other words, approximately 15 million men in this country have 53 00:03:10.290 --> 00:03:14.590 or will have prolonged homosexual histories. 54 00:03:16.990 --> 00:03:20.430 When this fact about a person becomes known he is 55 00:03:20.430 --> 00:03:23.510 in truth rejected. 56 00:03:23.510 --> 00:03:42.040 [ Music ] 57 00:03:42.040 --> 00:03:44.250 This is a program about homosexuality. 58 00:03:44.250 --> 00:03:46.960 What causes it, Is there a cure for it, 59 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:49.860 what does the homosexual say about his condition, 60 00:03:49.860 --> 00:03:53.740 what does society feel about the homosexual? 61 00:03:53.740 --> 00:03:56.810 To answer these questions here is Dr. Margaret Mead, 62 00:03:56.810 --> 00:03:59.760 world-famous anthropologist and associate curator 63 00:03:59.760 --> 00:04:03.720 of the American Museum of Natural History in New York. 64 00:04:04.930 --> 00:04:08.960 >> Homosexuality is not only found in great civilizations 65 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:10.930 like the civilization of the United States, 66 00:04:10.930 --> 00:04:15.830 but it is found among peoples at every level of culture. 67 00:04:15.830 --> 00:04:20.350 Among very simple people in the Arctic, out on South Sea Islands 68 00:04:20.350 --> 00:04:25.990 and among the brave warrior like tribes of American Indians. 69 00:04:25.990 --> 00:04:29.650 It was found in ancient societies 70 00:04:29.650 --> 00:04:32.820 and there are also some societies 71 00:04:32.820 --> 00:04:35.780 where homosexuality is virtually unknown. 72 00:04:35.780 --> 00:04:38.780 I myself worked with one group in New Guinea 73 00:04:38.780 --> 00:04:42.520 where there was not a single individual who showed any signs 74 00:04:42.520 --> 00:04:44.800 of identification with the opposite sex 75 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:48.130 and where the people themselves did not recognize homosexuality 76 00:04:48.130 --> 00:04:49.280 at all. 77 00:04:49.280 --> 00:04:54.040 But when we looked the whole world over, both in terms 78 00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:56.810 of anthropological studies of primitive people 79 00:04:56.810 --> 00:05:02.630 and historically it seems very clear that whether 80 00:05:02.630 --> 00:05:05.750 or not homosexuality occurs 81 00:05:05.750 --> 00:05:11.250 to any extent isn't entirely a matter of culture. 82 00:05:11.250 --> 00:05:15.160 Now, of course, there are certain biological cues 83 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:17.020 that culture acts on. 84 00:05:17.020 --> 00:05:23.100 Human beings like all young mammals are playful and a kind 85 00:05:23.100 --> 00:05:27.980 of sexual roughhouse and play is one of the things 86 00:05:27.980 --> 00:05:31.700 that characterizes young mammals everywhere in the world. 87 00:05:31.700 --> 00:05:36.030 So there's a kind of playful homosexual behavior 88 00:05:36.030 --> 00:05:39.040 that is found in a great many societies and that we can think 89 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:46.540 of as a prelude to courtship and later mature mating. 90 00:05:46.540 --> 00:05:50.370 Then also there seemed to be of a small number of people, 91 00:05:50.370 --> 00:05:53.960 not very many, but a small number who are born 92 00:05:53.960 --> 00:05:58.630 with a definite physiological bend towards identification 93 00:05:58.630 --> 00:06:03.320 with the opposite sex and they occur in almost every society, 94 00:06:03.320 --> 00:06:04.940 but whether they do anything with them 95 00:06:04.940 --> 00:06:08.040 or not is entirely a matter of culture. 96 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:11.990 But they give cues, if you had one man in a society 97 00:06:11.990 --> 00:06:15.210 that would rather act like a woman, dress like a woman, 98 00:06:15.210 --> 00:06:19.230 then many others can follow his example if they wish to. 99 00:06:19.230 --> 00:06:22.310 And finally, and this is probably more responsible 100 00:06:22.310 --> 00:06:26.040 in high civilizations, as soon as a culture begins 101 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:28.830 to discriminate between individuals 102 00:06:28.830 --> 00:06:32.240 and any woman isn't the same as any other woman 103 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:35.520 and individuals can be seen in terms of their temperament 104 00:06:35.520 --> 00:06:38.880 and personality, you will also get formation 105 00:06:38.880 --> 00:06:41.440 of relationships that's independent of sex. 106 00:06:41.440 --> 00:06:45.060 So this is characteristic of sophisticated high civilizations 107 00:06:45.060 --> 00:06:47.460 where personality matters. 108 00:06:47.460 --> 00:06:52.700 Now beyond that a society may approve of both male 109 00:06:52.700 --> 00:06:56.290 and female homosexuality, it may approve of one 110 00:06:56.290 --> 00:06:59.230 and absolutely forbid the other, 111 00:06:59.230 --> 00:07:03.350 there may be regular expected roles for the homosexual 112 00:07:03.350 --> 00:07:07.340 so that the women will look at small boys and say 113 00:07:07.340 --> 00:07:09.470 to particular ones, probably when you grow 114 00:07:09.470 --> 00:07:11.920 up you're going to be a transvestite. 115 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:16.480 There are American Indian tribes where the transvestite 116 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:18.450 who can do everything a man can do 117 00:07:18.450 --> 00:07:22.170 and everything a woman can do is regarded as superior 118 00:07:22.170 --> 00:07:27.090 to either the heterosexual man or the heterosexual woman. 119 00:07:27.090 --> 00:07:29.120 And there's one American Indian tribe 120 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:32.820 where there have been quotes marry each other 121 00:07:32.820 --> 00:07:35.470 and even pretend to have children. 122 00:07:35.470 --> 00:07:39.400 So throughout the world whether it's a question 123 00:07:39.400 --> 00:07:42.410 of the relationship between teacher and pupil 124 00:07:42.410 --> 00:07:47.040 as in ancient Greece or between pairs of young warriors 125 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:50.150 or whether as among some of the Siberian tribes, 126 00:07:50.150 --> 00:07:52.840 all religious practitioners both men 127 00:07:52.840 --> 00:07:55.080 and women were transvestites. 128 00:07:55.080 --> 00:07:59.430 We find that it's society that patterns homosexual behavior, 129 00:07:59.430 --> 00:08:02.530 it's society that tells young children 130 00:08:02.530 --> 00:08:06.110 that these are possible roles or impossible roles, 131 00:08:06.110 --> 00:08:11.770 and it's society that treats the practices of homosexuality 132 00:08:11.770 --> 00:08:15.440 or the identification of an individual as only interested 133 00:08:15.440 --> 00:08:20.400 in playing a particular homosexual role. 134 00:08:20.400 --> 00:08:25.030 It's society that treats these either as sacred or profane, 135 00:08:25.030 --> 00:08:27.840 as preferred or as criminal. 136 00:08:27.840 --> 00:08:31.680 It's society that turns those individuals who either 137 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:36.920 by physiological bent or by a psychological experience 138 00:08:36.920 --> 00:08:39.810 in childhood or sometimes by occupational choice 139 00:08:39.810 --> 00:08:43.260 because a religious choice or an artistic choice, 140 00:08:43.260 --> 00:08:48.440 prefer exclusive or partial homosexual practices. 141 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:53.770 It's society that says that this is either good or bad behavior. 142 00:08:53.770 --> 00:08:56.170 And equally there are societies that are 143 00:08:56.170 --> 00:08:59.530 so aggressively heterosexual that they deny 144 00:08:59.530 --> 00:09:02.740 to individuals even warmth or tenderness 145 00:09:02.740 --> 00:09:05.760 or friendship towards their own sex. 146 00:09:05.760 --> 00:09:11.420 So that if we look the whole world over with all that we know 147 00:09:11.420 --> 00:09:15.620 about people at each period of history, we have to say 148 00:09:15.620 --> 00:09:20.030 that homosexuality is a potential of human beings. 149 00:09:20.030 --> 00:09:24.230 That human beings are deeply bisexual and bisexual 150 00:09:24.230 --> 00:09:28.480 at different periods in their maturation 151 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:32.840 and whether the society is going to assign homosexual behavior 152 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:38.270 to adolescents or to adulthood as appropriate for some men 153 00:09:38.270 --> 00:09:42.260 and no women or some men and some women 154 00:09:42.260 --> 00:09:45.910 or to bull it all together or treat it as a crime 155 00:09:45.910 --> 00:09:49.610 and condemn those individuals with homosexual propensities 156 00:09:49.610 --> 00:09:54.160 to living a life as exiles and criminals. 157 00:09:54.160 --> 00:09:58.830 This is entirely a matter of culture, society has set 158 00:09:58.830 --> 00:10:04.820 up the way sex is to be lived and it is within the power 159 00:10:04.820 --> 00:10:10.360 of each society that is able to change to change any one 160 00:10:10.360 --> 00:10:14.040 of their attitudes towards this question as they wish. 161 00:10:14.040 --> 00:10:21.290 >> The role of the homosexual is established by his society. 162 00:10:21.290 --> 00:10:25.770 How prevalent is homosexuality in our society, what do we know 163 00:10:25.770 --> 00:10:30.470 about the causes, what is a homosexual? 164 00:10:30.470 --> 00:10:32.620 Here is Dr. Karl Bowman, former director 165 00:10:32.620 --> 00:10:34.830 of Langley Porter Clinic, past president 166 00:10:34.830 --> 00:10:38.030 of the American Psychiatric Association. 167 00:10:38.030 --> 00:10:42.810 >> I have been a psychiatrist for 45 and spent a good deal 168 00:10:42.810 --> 00:10:46.990 of time studying problems of homosexuality. 169 00:10:46.990 --> 00:10:50.110 At one time I carried out a four-year research 170 00:10:50.110 --> 00:10:54.530 on sex deviation for the State of California. 171 00:10:54.530 --> 00:10:59.510 Even a simple question like what is homosexuality is hard 172 00:10:59.510 --> 00:11:01.050 to answer. 173 00:11:01.050 --> 00:11:05.420 We take only persons convicted of homosexual crimes, 174 00:11:05.420 --> 00:11:09.620 we get a very inadequate idea of the whole problem. 175 00:11:09.620 --> 00:11:12.270 From the standpoint of overt behavior, 176 00:11:12.270 --> 00:11:14.690 Professor Kinsey's classification, 177 00:11:14.690 --> 00:11:16.440 which divides individuals 178 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:20.690 up into seven different groups is very interesting. 179 00:11:20.690 --> 00:11:25.700 Here number six we have the complete homosexual, 180 00:11:25.700 --> 00:11:29.070 the individual who is interested only in homosexuality 181 00:11:29.070 --> 00:11:31.680 and not in heterosexuality. 182 00:11:31.680 --> 00:11:37.030 Here number three, we have the individual who is 50-50, 183 00:11:37.030 --> 00:11:41.280 half homosexual half heterosexual. 184 00:11:41.280 --> 00:11:45.310 Here at zero, we have the individual who has no interest 185 00:11:45.310 --> 00:11:49.730 in homosexuality and is completely heterosexual. 186 00:11:51.510 --> 00:11:55.570 There's a great difference between these individuals, 187 00:11:55.570 --> 00:11:59.370 between the individual who is the homosexual 188 00:11:59.370 --> 00:12:00.680 and the other individual 189 00:12:00.680 --> 00:12:08.020 who perhaps is predominantly heterosexual, as in one in two, 190 00:12:08.020 --> 00:12:12.060 but occasionally homosexual. 191 00:12:12.060 --> 00:12:17.220 We also find that there's a group of homosexual prostitutes 192 00:12:17.220 --> 00:12:20.350 who usually have no real heterosexual drive like, 193 00:12:20.350 --> 00:12:24.750 but who like heterosexual prostitutes usually get no 194 00:12:24.750 --> 00:12:27.420 satisfaction from such experiences, 195 00:12:27.420 --> 00:12:30.850 but do it solely for the money. 196 00:12:30.850 --> 00:12:34.230 Then we have individuals of homosexual tendencies 197 00:12:34.230 --> 00:12:37.500 who have never had any overt homosexual experiences. 198 00:12:37.500 --> 00:12:42.130 These can be divided into two groups, one group consists 199 00:12:42.130 --> 00:12:46.020 of individuals who have conscious homosexual drive 200 00:12:46.020 --> 00:12:49.990 and who are attracted sexually by members of their own sex, 201 00:12:49.990 --> 00:12:53.280 but not by individuals of the opposite sex. 202 00:12:53.280 --> 00:12:56.560 In other words, they control their behavior to conform 203 00:12:56.560 --> 00:12:59.010 to conventional standards. 204 00:12:59.010 --> 00:13:01.790 Just as there are many women who are attracted sexually 205 00:13:01.790 --> 00:13:07.220 by members of the opposite sex, but who remain virgins. 206 00:13:07.220 --> 00:13:10.790 Then finally, we have individuals whose homosexual 207 00:13:10.790 --> 00:13:14.510 tendencies are represented in the unconscious 208 00:13:14.510 --> 00:13:18.190 and they're repressed or unconscious homosexual. 209 00:13:18.190 --> 00:13:19.290 This [inaudible] study may find 210 00:13:19.290 --> 00:13:24.380 that the individual unconscious homosexual desires are affecting 211 00:13:24.380 --> 00:13:27.120 his behavior in his emotional life, 212 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:31.070 but that at a conscious level the individual considers himself 213 00:13:31.070 --> 00:13:35.310 heterosexual and would be much upset if anyone claimed 214 00:13:35.310 --> 00:13:38.040 that he was a homosexual. 215 00:13:38.040 --> 00:13:40.200 Therefore, when we are discussing the problem 216 00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:44.070 of homosexuality, we must not fall into the error of assuming 217 00:13:44.070 --> 00:13:46.740 that all the individuals [inaudible] both are 218 00:13:46.740 --> 00:13:48.590 exactly alike. 219 00:13:48.590 --> 00:13:52.350 Generalizations become more difficult. 220 00:13:52.350 --> 00:13:55.110 In discussing the problem, people generally think 221 00:13:55.110 --> 00:13:59.800 of the group we refer to as the overt homosexuals. 222 00:13:59.800 --> 00:14:03.040 Society is interested in the overt homosexual 223 00:14:03.040 --> 00:14:07.920 who leads a fairly homosexual life and who may be responsible 224 00:14:07.920 --> 00:14:12.700 for initiating others into homosexual activity. 225 00:14:12.700 --> 00:14:17.530 The latent homosexuality is ordinarily no legal 226 00:14:17.530 --> 00:14:19.270 or sociological problem, 227 00:14:19.270 --> 00:14:22.900 although his latent homosexuality may result 228 00:14:22.900 --> 00:14:28.420 in neurotic behavior which brings him to the psychiatrist. 229 00:14:28.420 --> 00:14:31.230 Returning to the overt homosexual, 230 00:14:31.230 --> 00:14:34.760 we find that Professor Kinsey had some very interesting 231 00:14:34.760 --> 00:14:38.210 statistics as to the prevalence of homosexuality, 232 00:14:38.210 --> 00:14:40.030 although he himself stated 233 00:14:40.030 --> 00:14:42.330 that he did not have a random selection 234 00:14:42.330 --> 00:14:44.530 of the total population. 235 00:14:44.530 --> 00:14:47.750 According to Professor Kinsey's study, 236 00:14:47.750 --> 00:14:54.580 4 percent of all adult males are completely homosexual 237 00:14:54.580 --> 00:14:58.130 and have only homosexual activity, 238 00:14:58.130 --> 00:15:02.710 18 percent are more homosexual and heterosexual 239 00:15:02.710 --> 00:15:06.070 in their experience after adolescence, 240 00:15:06.070 --> 00:15:09.570 and finally 37 percent have had 241 00:15:09.570 --> 00:15:12.700 at least one homosexual experience leading 242 00:15:12.700 --> 00:15:16.350 to orgasm after adolescence. 243 00:15:16.350 --> 00:15:21.160 This gives us some idea of the magnitude of the problem 244 00:15:21.160 --> 00:15:23.160 if we realize that one man 245 00:15:23.160 --> 00:15:28.230 out six is more homosexual than heterosexual. 246 00:15:31.030 --> 00:15:34.540 Is it possible to diagnose the homosexual simply by seeing 247 00:15:34.540 --> 00:15:37.840 and talking with him for a few minutes? 248 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:42.270 Many homosexuals claim that they can do this and psychiatrists 249 00:15:42.270 --> 00:15:44.080 who have worked a great deal 250 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:49.020 with homosexuals can undoubtedly spot a majority of them. 251 00:15:49.020 --> 00:15:51.970 On the other hand, the average individual would fall 252 00:15:51.970 --> 00:15:55.800 down very badly in attempting to do this. 253 00:15:55.800 --> 00:15:59.090 There is a common idea that the male homosexual is detected 254 00:15:59.090 --> 00:16:05.160 by body build, dress, speech, general behavior. 255 00:16:05.160 --> 00:16:10.260 It is true that almost anyone can spot a certain group 256 00:16:10.260 --> 00:16:14.780 of homosexuals by their tendency to ape feminine dress 257 00:16:14.780 --> 00:16:18.890 and feminine manners, the type of haircut, the use of perfume 258 00:16:18.890 --> 00:16:22.630 and even lipstick, an excessive amount of jewelry worn, 259 00:16:22.630 --> 00:16:25.750 as well as the mannerisms and behavior may betray 260 00:16:25.750 --> 00:16:30.090 such an individual homosexual to anyone. 261 00:16:30.090 --> 00:16:32.770 However, there are plenty of homosexuals 262 00:16:32.770 --> 00:16:36.660 who have broad shoulders, heavy build and seem 263 00:16:36.660 --> 00:16:38.240 to be the epitome of masculinity. 264 00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:41.010 It has been claimed by many observers 265 00:16:41.010 --> 00:16:44.850 that homosexuality is more frequent among athletes 266 00:16:44.850 --> 00:16:47.180 and persons in the military service. 267 00:16:47.180 --> 00:16:48.740 The two groups that would seem 268 00:16:48.740 --> 00:16:51.720 to be the symbols of masculinity. 269 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:55.620 Freud regarded homosexuality as an arrest of sexual development 270 00:16:55.620 --> 00:16:58.980 and homosexuality is one phase 271 00:16:58.980 --> 00:17:01.660 through which all individuals pass as part 272 00:17:01.660 --> 00:17:03.790 of the sex development. 273 00:17:04.840 --> 00:17:08.450 Many feel that psychological factors are most important 274 00:17:08.450 --> 00:17:11.430 in causing homosexuality. 275 00:17:11.430 --> 00:17:14.780 They emphasize the early developmental years of the child 276 00:17:14.780 --> 00:17:17.780 with his relationships to the father and mother 277 00:17:17.780 --> 00:17:21.400 as having a profound effect on the final pattern 278 00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:25.000 of the individual's sexual behavior. 279 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:28.560 Others emphasize the effects of the whole cultural pattern 280 00:17:28.560 --> 00:17:31.280 and feel that it may very well affect the incidence 281 00:17:31.280 --> 00:17:34.000 of homosexuality and particularly, 282 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:38.150 the amount of overt homosexuality. 283 00:17:38.150 --> 00:17:42.710 Time permits only a very brief mention of methods of treatment. 284 00:17:42.710 --> 00:17:46.360 In general, treatment is difficult and particularly 285 00:17:46.360 --> 00:17:50.140 so in the group of so-called complete homosexuals. 286 00:17:50.140 --> 00:17:52.600 Much will depend upon the individual's attitude 287 00:17:52.600 --> 00:17:55.830 and his wishes to be changed. 288 00:17:55.830 --> 00:17:57.930 Freud himself was not too optimistic 289 00:17:57.930 --> 00:18:00.310 about curing homosexuality. 290 00:18:00.310 --> 00:18:03.800 In the letter to a mother who wrote him about her son, 291 00:18:03.800 --> 00:18:07.110 he gave this account of his own view. 292 00:18:07.110 --> 00:18:10.690 I gather from your letter that your son is a homosexual, 293 00:18:10.690 --> 00:18:12.230 I am most impressed by the fact 294 00:18:12.230 --> 00:18:14.180 that you do not mention this term yourself 295 00:18:14.180 --> 00:18:16.910 in your information about him. 296 00:18:16.910 --> 00:18:19.510 May I question you why do you avoid it? 297 00:18:19.510 --> 00:18:22.360 Homosexuality is assuredly no advantage, 298 00:18:22.360 --> 00:18:24.560 but it is nothing to be ashamed of. 299 00:18:24.560 --> 00:18:28.360 No advice, no degradation, it cannot be classified 300 00:18:28.360 --> 00:18:31.280 as an illness, we consider it to be a variation 301 00:18:31.280 --> 00:18:34.560 of the sexual function producing a certain arrest 302 00:18:34.560 --> 00:18:36.750 of sexual development. 303 00:18:36.750 --> 00:18:39.560 Many highly respectable individuals of ancient 304 00:18:39.560 --> 00:18:42.870 and modern times have been homosexuals, 305 00:18:42.870 --> 00:18:46.920 several of the greatest men among them, Plato, Michelangelo, 306 00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:49.880 Leonardo da Vinci and others. 307 00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:52.940 It's a grave injustice to persecute homosexuality 308 00:18:52.940 --> 00:18:54.810 as a crime and a cruelty too. 309 00:18:54.810 --> 00:18:59.940 If you do not believe me read the works Havelock Ellis. 310 00:18:59.940 --> 00:19:02.370 By asking me if I can, you mean I suppose 311 00:19:02.370 --> 00:19:04.330 if I can abolish homosexuality 312 00:19:04.330 --> 00:19:09.050 and make normal heterosexuality take its place. 313 00:19:09.050 --> 00:19:11.990 The answer is in a general way, we cannot promise to achieve it. 314 00:19:11.990 --> 00:19:15.320 In a certain number of cases, we succeeded 315 00:19:15.320 --> 00:19:19.290 in developing the blanket term of heterosexual tendency 316 00:19:19.290 --> 00:19:23.070 which are present in every homosexual. 317 00:19:23.070 --> 00:19:28.750 As the question of the quality and the age of the individual, 318 00:19:28.750 --> 00:19:34.170 the result of treatment cannot be predicted. 319 00:19:34.170 --> 00:19:37.860 What analysis can do for your son runs in a different line, 320 00:19:37.860 --> 00:19:41.840 if he is unhappy, neurotic, torn by conflict, 321 00:19:41.840 --> 00:19:46.190 inhibited in his social life analysis may bring him harmony, 322 00:19:46.190 --> 00:19:50.820 peace of mind, full efficiency whether he remains a homosexual 323 00:19:50.820 --> 00:19:52.640 or just changed. 324 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:54.200 >> What do other homosexuals think 325 00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:56.510 about the so-called queens? 326 00:19:56.510 --> 00:19:58.330 What are their feelings about themselves 327 00:19:58.330 --> 00:20:00.740 and their place in society? 328 00:20:00.740 --> 00:20:04.100 The Mattachine Society has its headquarters in San Francisco 329 00:20:04.100 --> 00:20:08.630 and offices in New York, Chicago, Boston and Denver. 330 00:20:08.630 --> 00:20:12.800 Its aim to help its own members with counsel and legal advice 331 00:20:12.800 --> 00:20:17.310 and to attempt to educate the public on homosexuality. 332 00:20:17.310 --> 00:20:21.710 Here are three members of the Mattachine Society, Herald Call, 333 00:20:21.710 --> 00:20:29.550 President, Don Lucas, Executive Secretary, and Les Fisher. 334 00:20:29.550 --> 00:20:33.890 >> We think the swish 335 00:20:33.890 --> 00:20:38.490 or the queen represents actually a small minority 336 00:20:38.490 --> 00:20:41.610 within the whole homosexual grouping, 337 00:20:41.610 --> 00:20:46.170 but to the public this is a stereotype view or picture 338 00:20:46.170 --> 00:20:50.530 by which all homosexuals are judged it seems. 339 00:20:50.530 --> 00:20:54.220 These people actually in most cases are not even liked 340 00:20:54.220 --> 00:20:57.090 by the rest of their homosexual brethren 341 00:20:57.090 --> 00:21:00.940 because they have perhaps rejected themselves 342 00:21:00.940 --> 00:21:05.090 and they feel that society has rejected them. 343 00:21:05.090 --> 00:21:07.130 To dispel part of this stereotype picture, 344 00:21:07.130 --> 00:21:10.060 we have formed the Mattachine Society which has 345 00:21:10.060 --> 00:21:13.430 as its purpose work in education, research 346 00:21:13.430 --> 00:21:18.260 and social service in this whole homosexual problem. 347 00:21:18.260 --> 00:21:20.910 The word Mattachine comes from the language of Provence 348 00:21:20.910 --> 00:21:24.660 in Southern Europe, it actually means little fool. 349 00:21:24.660 --> 00:21:30.030 The Mattachines in the medieval ages were the court gestures, 350 00:21:30.030 --> 00:21:33.040 the clowns, the soothsayers, the teachers, 351 00:21:33.040 --> 00:21:35.270 prophets who stood behind the throne 352 00:21:35.270 --> 00:21:39.970 and could often speak the truth in spite of stern consequence. 353 00:21:39.970 --> 00:21:43.060 The purpose of the organization is to publish a magazine, 354 00:21:43.060 --> 00:21:47.840 to hold public discussion forums and to educate 355 00:21:47.840 --> 00:21:50.220 and to aid homosexuals, individuals 356 00:21:50.220 --> 00:21:53.340 and in groups in various ways. 357 00:21:53.340 --> 00:21:57.370 It's not a pen pal organization nor is it an organization 358 00:21:57.370 --> 00:22:00.250 for homosexual contacts. 359 00:22:00.250 --> 00:22:03.710 We are calling for a change of law because we know the number 360 00:22:03.710 --> 00:22:06.330 of homosexuals is large. 361 00:22:06.330 --> 00:22:09.740 >> Speaking of the number of homosexuals here, 362 00:22:09.740 --> 00:22:11.950 it is a common misconception I believe 363 00:22:11.950 --> 00:22:15.100 that the homosexual is congregated 364 00:22:15.100 --> 00:22:19.010 in such large cities throughout the country as New York, 365 00:22:19.010 --> 00:22:22.560 San Francisco, etcetera, but I think that we can safely say 366 00:22:22.560 --> 00:22:25.140 that a homosexual is found everywhere 367 00:22:25.140 --> 00:22:26.860 in every small community, 368 00:22:26.860 --> 00:22:29.560 every rural district throughout the country 369 00:22:29.560 --> 00:22:32.630 because we receive letters from such places as in, 370 00:22:32.630 --> 00:22:35.830 Campingden [phonetic], Wyoming, Chapel, Nebraska, Old Hickory, 371 00:22:35.830 --> 00:22:37.720 Tennessee, all of those places. 372 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:41.560 And many of these letters that we receive show 373 00:22:41.560 --> 00:22:44.450 that the individual there is looking for assistance 374 00:22:44.450 --> 00:22:49.970 with a particular problem, a personality problem that he has. 375 00:22:49.970 --> 00:22:52.890 >> Incidentally protecting the young is one 376 00:22:52.890 --> 00:22:55.150 of the important planks in the Mattachine platform, 377 00:22:55.150 --> 00:23:00.200 we know that laws serving that purpose must always be enforced 378 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:03.600 in this country in our cultures. 379 00:23:03.600 --> 00:23:08.160 Les, do you think marriage is good or bad for homosexuals 380 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:09.880 as a cover-up for instance? 381 00:23:09.880 --> 00:23:15.070 >> Well having been married myself, I would like to say 382 00:23:15.070 --> 00:23:19.090 that I think that a good many homosexual people would not be 383 00:23:19.090 --> 00:23:23.040 homosexual had they have had a heterosexual experience early 384 00:23:23.040 --> 00:23:24.880 in life. 385 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:27.020 But I certainly wouldn't recommend it as a cure 386 00:23:27.020 --> 00:23:30.170 in any way, shape or form for homosexuality. 387 00:23:31.330 --> 00:23:38.030 >> Well would with this bring about a shall we say challenge 388 00:23:38.030 --> 00:23:43.020 to a girl for instance to change a homosexual do you suppose? 389 00:23:43.020 --> 00:23:46.290 >> Well many girls undoubtedly have felt that challenge 390 00:23:46.290 --> 00:23:49.950 and some have indicated 391 00:23:49.950 --> 00:23:52.300 that homosexuals are wonderful escorts 392 00:23:52.300 --> 00:23:56.320 because they are very thoughtful partners and considerate 393 00:23:56.320 --> 00:24:00.630 in being out on dates and so on. 394 00:24:00.630 --> 00:24:04.520 The homosexual as a security risk is another thing that is 395 00:24:04.520 --> 00:24:06.630 of great concern to us and here again, 396 00:24:06.630 --> 00:24:11.240 we believe that it is the law itself, public attitude 397 00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:15.250 and the stigma that exists against homosexuality which does 398 00:24:15.250 --> 00:24:21.000 in some instances make a homosexual a security risk. 399 00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:25.010 By in large if these laws were changed, we'd find I think 400 00:24:25.010 --> 00:24:28.480 that the homosexual is no different 401 00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:34.590 than anyone else except perhaps in his choice of a love object. 402 00:24:34.590 --> 00:24:40.730 He desires the same kind of rights to live his life freely 403 00:24:40.730 --> 00:24:44.210 and without interference to pursue his happiness 404 00:24:44.210 --> 00:24:48.490 as a responsible citizen and to receive the benefits 405 00:24:48.490 --> 00:24:51.890 of constitutional rights, due process and protection 406 00:24:51.890 --> 00:24:56.310 of the law that all of us enjoy. 407 00:24:56.310 --> 00:24:59.150 >> Benefits and protections of the law. 408 00:24:59.150 --> 00:25:02.250 What law, in what state? 409 00:25:02.250 --> 00:25:04.840 Here's Mr. Albert Benedict, lawyer and lecturer 410 00:25:04.840 --> 00:25:06.780 at the University of California. 411 00:25:06.780 --> 00:25:11.040 >> A basic though little realized fact is 412 00:25:11.040 --> 00:25:14.760 that the statutes in this area for the most part are not aimed 413 00:25:14.760 --> 00:25:18.590 at homosexual activity as such, but rather they are aimed 414 00:25:18.590 --> 00:25:20.730 at certain sex acts irrespective 415 00:25:20.730 --> 00:25:24.800 of the gender of the participants. 416 00:25:24.800 --> 00:25:26.930 I am not primarily concerned here 417 00:25:26.930 --> 00:25:28.830 with offenses whether homosexual 418 00:25:28.830 --> 00:25:31.660 or heterosexual involving children 419 00:25:31.660 --> 00:25:35.990 or those enacted forcefully or those done in public view. 420 00:25:35.990 --> 00:25:39.140 I'm going to limit my concern 421 00:25:39.140 --> 00:25:43.670 to laws governing private adult behavior 422 00:25:43.670 --> 00:25:48.420 between mutually consenting persons who are adults. 423 00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:51.990 With respect to this area, the basic fact is that the laws 424 00:25:51.990 --> 00:25:55.270 which have been aimed at controlling such conduct are 425 00:25:55.270 --> 00:25:58.430 and have proved to be unenforceable. 426 00:25:59.830 --> 00:26:02.420 Most of our states have statutes which punish 427 00:26:02.420 --> 00:26:04.540 as criminal a wide variety 428 00:26:04.540 --> 00:26:09.010 of sexual activity, adultery for example. 429 00:26:09.010 --> 00:26:13.070 But these statutes are largely dead letters 430 00:26:13.070 --> 00:26:15.120 because they are unenforceable. 431 00:26:15.120 --> 00:26:18.300 Since Kinsey pointed out for example that one half 432 00:26:18.300 --> 00:26:21.380 of all married males at some time during their lives commit 433 00:26:21.380 --> 00:26:24.850 adulterous acts, we should-- 434 00:26:24.850 --> 00:26:29.320 were we to attempt to enforce these statutes be confronted 435 00:26:29.320 --> 00:26:31.430 with the probability that our country would have 436 00:26:31.430 --> 00:26:33.850 to be turned into a jail? 437 00:26:35.110 --> 00:26:39.760 Now what sorts of acts do the statutes in question aim at? 438 00:26:39.760 --> 00:26:43.140 Nearly all of our states have laws that punish sexual activity 439 00:26:43.140 --> 00:26:45.880 of an oral genital nature and sodomy. 440 00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:50.460 Now of course, these acts may be performed by married couples 441 00:26:50.460 --> 00:26:52.080 and it is a fact of some interest 442 00:26:52.080 --> 00:26:55.010 that married couples are frequently urged to engage 443 00:26:55.010 --> 00:26:58.080 in such activity by the many marriage manuals 444 00:26:58.080 --> 00:27:01.210 which are widely available today. 445 00:27:01.210 --> 00:27:03.930 In addition to married couples being capable of behaving 446 00:27:03.930 --> 00:27:07.000 in this fashion almost any other conceivable combination 447 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:09.570 of human beings may also. 448 00:27:09.570 --> 00:27:11.990 The penalties in this area 449 00:27:11.990 --> 00:27:14.930 for such activity are extremely severe, 450 00:27:14.930 --> 00:27:19.350 in maximum terms they range from three years to life imprisonment 451 00:27:19.350 --> 00:27:22.570 and frequently where persons are convicted of such offenses, 452 00:27:22.570 --> 00:27:24.160 they are required to register 453 00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:26.030 with the local law enforcement authorities 454 00:27:26.030 --> 00:27:27.810 and to stay registered 455 00:27:27.810 --> 00:27:32.310 and to reregister upon every change of address. 456 00:27:32.310 --> 00:27:36.630 These laws are frequently incredibly self-contradictory 457 00:27:36.630 --> 00:27:38.000 and totally irrational. 458 00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:43.610 For example, in Ohio oral genital sex acts 459 00:27:43.610 --> 00:27:44.520 if they are engaged 460 00:27:44.520 --> 00:27:48.580 in by females are perfectly legitimate, if they are engaged 461 00:27:48.580 --> 00:27:52.900 in by males they are criminal, if they are engaged 462 00:27:52.900 --> 00:27:58.700 in by married couples and the female partner is active a crime 463 00:27:58.700 --> 00:27:59.990 is committed. 464 00:27:59.990 --> 00:28:03.700 If on the other hand a married couple engages in this activity, 465 00:28:03.700 --> 00:28:06.460 but the female partner is passive, 466 00:28:06.460 --> 00:28:10.530 again the activity is perfectly legitimate. 467 00:28:10.530 --> 00:28:15.970 And Ohio is no exception nor is it in any way unusual. 468 00:28:15.970 --> 00:28:21.270 Clearly if we were going to enforce these laws strictly, 469 00:28:21.270 --> 00:28:24.160 we would turn the country into a police state 470 00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:26.930 if not a lunatic asylum. 471 00:28:26.930 --> 00:28:30.770 Happily the civilized trend is away from criminal punishment 472 00:28:30.770 --> 00:28:34.310 of private consensual adult sexual behavior. 473 00:28:34.310 --> 00:28:37.130 History has shown that these laws do not work 474 00:28:37.130 --> 00:28:39.370 to achieve the purposes claimed for them. 475 00:28:39.370 --> 00:28:42.430 The attitude of a lady at the time of the trial 476 00:28:42.430 --> 00:28:45.800 of Oscar Wilde may illustrate the trend 477 00:28:45.800 --> 00:28:48.130 which I am attempting to point to here. 478 00:28:48.130 --> 00:28:49.570 She was asked what she thought 479 00:28:49.570 --> 00:28:54.290 of so-called deviant sexual behavior engaged in by adults 480 00:28:54.290 --> 00:28:56.280 and what she said was, I don't care what sort 481 00:28:56.280 --> 00:29:00.300 of sexual activity adult persons behave in or engage in so long 482 00:29:00.300 --> 00:29:03.120 as they don't do it in the streets and frighten the horses. 483 00:29:03.120 --> 00:29:08.380 >> But the laws are on the books, 484 00:29:08.380 --> 00:29:13.420 however are they enforced, can they be enforced? 485 00:29:13.420 --> 00:29:16.010 Here is Thomas Lynch, District Attorney of the City 486 00:29:16.010 --> 00:29:18.350 and County of San Francisco. 487 00:29:18.350 --> 00:29:22.260 >> As district attorney it's my job to uphold the laws 488 00:29:22.260 --> 00:29:25.900 of the State of California and as Mr. Benedict said, 489 00:29:25.900 --> 00:29:30.150 our laws refer to acts rather than people. 490 00:29:30.150 --> 00:29:32.050 You might be interested 491 00:29:32.050 --> 00:29:34.120 in knowing what the classifications 492 00:29:34.120 --> 00:29:36.660 of sex crimes are. 493 00:29:36.660 --> 00:29:40.150 First are the crimes against children. 494 00:29:40.150 --> 00:29:43.670 These are probably the easiest to prosecute 495 00:29:43.670 --> 00:29:47.600 because usually there is a complaining witness present. 496 00:29:47.600 --> 00:29:52.970 Second would be crimes of violence, such as forcible rape. 497 00:29:52.970 --> 00:29:57.690 Third would be forcible unnatural acts 498 00:29:57.690 --> 00:30:02.740 and fourth would be crimes which are specified in the penal code 499 00:30:02.740 --> 00:30:07.510 as being against the law because of their very nature. 500 00:30:07.510 --> 00:30:12.610 These crimes, such as sodomy may be done with the full compliance 501 00:30:12.610 --> 00:30:16.390 of both parties, they are still illegal. 502 00:30:16.390 --> 00:30:21.400 It's probably obvious from the very description of these crimes 503 00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:25.550 that prosecution is increasingly difficult with each one. 504 00:30:25.550 --> 00:30:30.130 In any other words it's much easier to prosecute a crime 505 00:30:30.130 --> 00:30:34.660 against a child or a sex crime of violence than it is 506 00:30:34.660 --> 00:30:39.020 to prosecute a crime which is committed privately 507 00:30:39.020 --> 00:30:41.310 and willingly. 508 00:30:41.310 --> 00:30:43.730 As a matter of fact, the only way 509 00:30:43.730 --> 00:30:48.700 that we can prosecute these crimes committed in private is 510 00:30:48.700 --> 00:30:52.480 if there is a complaint made by a third person. 511 00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:55.630 I would also add that what adults do 512 00:30:55.630 --> 00:31:00.600 in private can sometimes have some pretty shocking results 513 00:31:00.600 --> 00:31:02.530 for the rest of society. 514 00:31:02.530 --> 00:31:06.060 One example would be in the field of public health. 515 00:31:06.060 --> 00:31:09.290 >> Here is Dr. Irwin Brath [assumed spelling], 516 00:31:09.290 --> 00:31:10.230 Director of the Bureau 517 00:31:10.230 --> 00:31:13.520 of Disease Control in San Francisco. 518 00:31:13.520 --> 00:31:15.330 >> The homosexual appears 519 00:31:15.330 --> 00:31:20.730 to have an increasingly evident health hazard, venereal disease. 520 00:31:20.730 --> 00:31:25.200 This is evident in the reports from large metropolitan areas 521 00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:29.170 with good venereal disease control programs. 522 00:31:29.170 --> 00:31:33.390 Here in California, San Francisco and Los Angeles show 523 00:31:33.390 --> 00:31:35.930 that approximately 75 percent of males 524 00:31:35.930 --> 00:31:39.410 with early infectious syphilis have acquired their infection 525 00:31:39.410 --> 00:31:40.960 from other males. 526 00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:43.960 The same can be said of other large cities in the country, 527 00:31:43.960 --> 00:31:47.310 New York, New Orleans, Kansas City. 528 00:31:47.310 --> 00:31:50.850 In other health jurisdictions that perhaps do not have 529 00:31:50.850 --> 00:31:54.160 such a high figure, this may be more a reflection of the type 530 00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:57.010 of VD control program they have rather 531 00:31:57.010 --> 00:32:01.680 than on any specific differences in the population served. 532 00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:04.440 How do we arrive at this 75 percent figure 533 00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:07.870 if the homosexual is supposed to be so secretive? 534 00:32:07.870 --> 00:32:11.250 Obviously he acquired his infection from another person 535 00:32:11.250 --> 00:32:13.370 and by educating him to the importance 536 00:32:13.370 --> 00:32:16.620 of control guaranteeing the confidentiality 537 00:32:16.620 --> 00:32:19.000 of the information secured we were able 538 00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:23.750 to elicit his cooperation and get this necessary information. 539 00:32:23.750 --> 00:32:26.320 There are probably three other aspects of this 540 00:32:26.320 --> 00:32:28.890 that may be worthwhile mentioning. 541 00:32:28.890 --> 00:32:33.510 One the sexually active homosexual 542 00:32:33.510 --> 00:32:36.880 in general is probably more promiscuous 543 00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:39.510 than his heterosexual counterpart, 544 00:32:39.510 --> 00:32:42.540 the greater the risk obviously the greater the chance 545 00:32:42.540 --> 00:32:45.600 of acquiring a venereal disease. 546 00:32:45.600 --> 00:32:48.750 Two, in our education about venereal disease, 547 00:32:48.750 --> 00:32:51.230 such as in the military and what have you, 548 00:32:51.230 --> 00:32:57.210 we find that men get VD from girls, prostitutes 549 00:32:57.210 --> 00:33:00.370 and this generalization is accepted 550 00:33:00.370 --> 00:33:02.380 and so many men are not aware of the fact 551 00:33:02.380 --> 00:33:05.850 that they can acquire a venereal disease from another male. 552 00:33:05.850 --> 00:33:07.400 Venereal diseases are transmitted 553 00:33:07.400 --> 00:33:11.580 through close intimate sexual contact and sexual contact 554 00:33:11.580 --> 00:33:14.670 between two men can meet these criteria. 555 00:33:14.670 --> 00:33:17.390 Understandably an infected person is quite willing 556 00:33:17.390 --> 00:33:21.320 to acknowledge he acquired an infection from a drinking glass, 557 00:33:21.320 --> 00:33:25.620 a towel, but is unable to accept the idea that the partner 558 00:33:25.620 --> 00:33:28.410 of the previous week gave it to him. 559 00:33:28.410 --> 00:33:32.160 Third, we find that the heterosexual frequently use a 560 00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:35.020 device which although sold for the prevention 561 00:33:35.020 --> 00:33:39.860 of disease is its associated contraceptive powers 562 00:33:39.860 --> 00:33:42.340 that makes it acceptable. 563 00:33:42.340 --> 00:33:45.100 The homosexual does not have a similar motivation 564 00:33:45.100 --> 00:33:49.740 in his sexual activity, namely the control of conception. 565 00:33:49.740 --> 00:33:51.860 I would like to stress the Departments 566 00:33:51.860 --> 00:33:55.980 of Public Health are concerned primarily with the control 567 00:33:55.980 --> 00:33:59.110 of communicable disease. 568 00:33:59.110 --> 00:34:01.220 I would like to remind you 569 00:34:01.220 --> 00:34:03.880 that a venereal disease is not illegal, 570 00:34:03.880 --> 00:34:06.120 nor does it necessarily have to be acquired 571 00:34:06.120 --> 00:34:09.350 through illegal acts, therefore, health departments have 572 00:34:09.350 --> 00:34:13.570 to be nonjudgmental in their activities. 573 00:34:13.570 --> 00:34:17.210 The confusion reigned in the legal circles, 574 00:34:17.210 --> 00:34:21.970 psychiatric circles, sociologic circles concern 575 00:34:21.970 --> 00:34:25.560 with the problem suggests we have no alternative. 576 00:34:25.560 --> 00:34:28.050 By education, confidentiality 577 00:34:28.050 --> 00:34:31.960 of the information we have we hope we can do something 578 00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:34.000 about the situation. 579 00:34:36.980 --> 00:34:39.250 >> As you would expect, there is disagreement 580 00:34:39.250 --> 00:34:42.530 about the laws relating to private sexual behavior, 581 00:34:42.530 --> 00:34:45.570 not only among the public but among those concerned 582 00:34:45.570 --> 00:34:47.600 with the business of law. 583 00:34:47.600 --> 00:34:51.840 Let us hear from two of these men. 584 00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:54.020 Representing the retaining of legal sanctions 585 00:34:54.020 --> 00:34:57.490 against these acts is Mr. J Albert Hutchinson formerly 586 00:34:57.490 --> 00:34:59.180 with the attorney general's office 587 00:34:59.180 --> 00:35:03.050 and presently practicing law in San Francisco. 588 00:35:03.050 --> 00:35:06.880 And against retaining these laws Mr. Morris Lowenthal, 589 00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:10.230 San Francisco attorney who has debated these issues often 590 00:35:10.230 --> 00:35:15.600 with Mr. Hutchinson before the California Supreme Court. 591 00:35:15.600 --> 00:35:17.770 Mr. Hutchinson. 592 00:35:17.770 --> 00:35:21.230 >> As indicated in my introduction my interest 593 00:35:21.230 --> 00:35:24.100 in this subject is derived from my experience 594 00:35:24.100 --> 00:35:28.050 as a public officer and of course, as a parent. 595 00:35:28.050 --> 00:35:32.390 At the present time and frequently, 596 00:35:32.390 --> 00:35:34.560 the subject whether these laws 597 00:35:34.560 --> 00:35:36.740 or perhaps any laws should be changed comes 598 00:35:36.740 --> 00:35:37.790 up for consideration. 599 00:35:37.790 --> 00:35:42.300 It is good that we reconsider these things from time to time. 600 00:35:42.300 --> 00:35:43.860 And my point of view is to urge 601 00:35:43.860 --> 00:35:47.540 that there be no basic change in the existing laws. 602 00:35:47.540 --> 00:35:51.700 I'm not concerned with the kind of punishment, 603 00:35:51.700 --> 00:35:54.100 but I am interested in seeing that there be 604 00:35:54.100 --> 00:35:57.660 on these statute books a declaration 605 00:35:57.660 --> 00:36:00.820 against this type of conduct. 606 00:36:00.820 --> 00:36:04.830 These laws do not work against any group of people or any kind 607 00:36:04.830 --> 00:36:09.560 of person, they are against acts by whoever committed. 608 00:36:09.560 --> 00:36:13.280 These acts are unnatural and can have no proper purpose except 609 00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:16.890 the self-gratification of the individual. 610 00:36:16.890 --> 00:36:19.420 To prohibit them would be desirable both 611 00:36:19.420 --> 00:36:24.210 for the individual and for the society. 612 00:36:24.210 --> 00:36:28.550 History has shown I believe without question that a society 613 00:36:28.550 --> 00:36:31.700 which recognizes and tolerates activities 614 00:36:31.700 --> 00:36:36.640 of this kind freely necessarily corrodes in other respects. 615 00:36:36.640 --> 00:36:40.790 Therefore, if we do not declare these acts to be wrong, 616 00:36:40.790 --> 00:36:42.510 unlawful which is the only way we can do it 617 00:36:42.510 --> 00:36:47.220 in our country there is no standard for private conduct 618 00:36:47.220 --> 00:36:49.950 and for the youth who are growing up 619 00:36:49.950 --> 00:36:54.730 and getting their point of view for their future conduct. 620 00:36:54.730 --> 00:36:59.510 As to enforcement, it may not be possible in many cases 621 00:36:59.510 --> 00:37:03.750 to enforce the law, but you must not forget that law is enforced 622 00:37:03.750 --> 00:37:07.970 by the people themselves and a vast majority 623 00:37:07.970 --> 00:37:11.230 of people will obey the law because it is the law. 624 00:37:11.230 --> 00:37:13.400 We do not tolerate self-indulgence 625 00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:16.080 in other fields even though on the face of it, 626 00:37:16.080 --> 00:37:20.840 it might not hurt others and narcotics is a good example. 627 00:37:20.840 --> 00:37:26.570 I believe that we should have on the books a prescription 628 00:37:26.570 --> 00:37:31.430 against this sort of activity, it can lead to no useful 629 00:37:31.430 --> 00:37:35.950 and to tolerate it and we will simply reduce our moral 630 00:37:35.950 --> 00:37:38.940 standing, our moral determination 631 00:37:38.940 --> 00:37:43.830 by taking statute books and putting the crimes 632 00:37:43.830 --> 00:37:46.640 that are so described aside. 633 00:37:46.640 --> 00:37:50.630 That by itself amounts to almost an approval. 634 00:37:50.630 --> 00:37:55.910 The individual, of course, is subject to blackmail 635 00:37:55.910 --> 00:37:57.510 and I think Dr. Brath has pointed out one 636 00:37:57.510 --> 00:38:02.700 of the most compelling reasons for prohibiting such acts as far 637 00:38:02.700 --> 00:38:04.090 as the individual is concerned. 638 00:38:04.090 --> 00:38:05.650 It also has a public aspect 639 00:38:05.650 --> 00:38:09.680 as readily indicated by the statistics. 640 00:38:09.680 --> 00:38:12.680 We would prohibit people from doing perfectly lawful acts, 641 00:38:12.680 --> 00:38:17.220 perfectly moral acts if there was a danger of infecting others 642 00:38:17.220 --> 00:38:23.470 because they themselves were in a position to infect others. 643 00:38:23.470 --> 00:38:27.490 There's another point of view of course 644 00:38:27.490 --> 00:38:32.110 and Mr. Lowenthal will present that. 645 00:38:32.110 --> 00:38:35.880 >> Now Mr. Hutchison has debated this subject with me 646 00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:39.880 on several occasions and is repeating many of the fictions 647 00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:43.940 and myths that we've heard on this subject for many years 648 00:38:43.940 --> 00:38:47.370 and it's about time we looked at the practical side. 649 00:38:47.370 --> 00:38:52.700 He indicates himself that it is impossible to enforce the laws 650 00:38:52.700 --> 00:38:55.200 and you've heard from some experts as to why. 651 00:38:55.200 --> 00:38:57.660 Because first of all there are a vast number 652 00:38:57.660 --> 00:38:59.760 of Americans involved here. 653 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:02.720 The minimum number it's estimated would be 10 654 00:39:02.720 --> 00:39:06.140 to 15 million in America, actually Mr. Kinsey 655 00:39:06.140 --> 00:39:09.010 at one time testified to a legislative committee 656 00:39:09.010 --> 00:39:12.730 that 46 percent of the United States population has had some 657 00:39:12.730 --> 00:39:15.210 homosexual experience in their history. 658 00:39:15.210 --> 00:39:18.980 In California alone, he indicated there are 659 00:39:18.980 --> 00:39:23.100 over 2 million Californian males involved. 660 00:39:23.100 --> 00:39:27.600 But Mr. Hutchison said, well the people enforce the laws, 661 00:39:27.600 --> 00:39:29.080 is that true? 662 00:39:29.080 --> 00:39:30.470 Experts in the field say 663 00:39:30.470 --> 00:39:32.650 that there's 6 million homosexual acts 664 00:39:32.650 --> 00:39:37.250 for every 20 arrests, so we see that the laws are not enforced 665 00:39:37.250 --> 00:39:39.240 by the police department, the district attorney 666 00:39:39.240 --> 00:39:41.100 or by the people themselves. 667 00:39:41.100 --> 00:39:43.780 Why are the laws in the books? 668 00:39:43.780 --> 00:39:46.730 The common law these were not violations, 669 00:39:46.730 --> 00:39:48.520 these laws were adopted later, 670 00:39:48.520 --> 00:39:52.020 they were adopted before we had any knowledge of the true facts, 671 00:39:52.020 --> 00:39:54.220 facts which have been developed by Dr. Bowman, 672 00:39:54.220 --> 00:39:57.690 by Kinsey, by Engle and others. 673 00:39:57.690 --> 00:39:59.870 These laws reflect certain fiction, 674 00:39:59.870 --> 00:40:02.360 some of which you've heard a few minutes ago. 675 00:40:02.360 --> 00:40:06.520 The assumption for example that homosexuality survives 676 00:40:06.520 --> 00:40:11.740 by proselytizing, by teachers taking advantage of children 677 00:40:11.740 --> 00:40:15.440 or adults taking advantage of children or of other adults. 678 00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:20.690 But actually as a study made by a California subcommittee 679 00:40:20.690 --> 00:40:24.290 and sex crimes proved only a small percentage 680 00:40:24.290 --> 00:40:27.850 of homosexuals just like heterosexuals attempt to seduce, 681 00:40:27.850 --> 00:40:29.700 assault or initiate relations 682 00:40:29.700 --> 00:40:32.400 with children or with other adults. 683 00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:34.050 Now the fiction that we heard here 684 00:40:34.050 --> 00:40:38.780 that homosexuality is biologically unnatural is a very 685 00:40:38.780 --> 00:40:40.200 common fiction. 686 00:40:40.200 --> 00:40:42.660 Kinsey's statistics have exploded it, 687 00:40:42.660 --> 00:40:44.690 it's a common phenomenon among animals 688 00:40:44.690 --> 00:40:48.370 and as Kinsey once expressed neither biologists nor animals 689 00:40:48.370 --> 00:40:50.830 were consulted when the laws were drawn. 690 00:40:50.830 --> 00:40:55.500 As a matter of fact all of these studies, most of them 691 00:40:55.500 --> 00:40:58.150 within the last 10 years or 15 years, 692 00:40:58.150 --> 00:41:02.240 have shown that homosexual conduct is generally harmless 693 00:41:02.240 --> 00:41:06.200 to society and homosexuals are no menace to society 694 00:41:06.200 --> 00:41:08.740 that they do nothing to destroy the social structure 695 00:41:08.740 --> 00:41:10.850 or to disrupt the family 696 00:41:10.850 --> 00:41:13.260 and as the legislative committee indicated, 697 00:41:13.260 --> 00:41:17.210 they are not anti-sexual individuals. 698 00:41:17.210 --> 00:41:20.880 And strangely enough they've exploded one other myth 699 00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:25.180 mentioned earlier, homosexuality did not cause a demoralization 700 00:41:25.180 --> 00:41:28.920 or decay of civilizations, they exist homosexuals 701 00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:32.090 in every occupation in every city. 702 00:41:32.090 --> 00:41:36.490 Now it's not a disease as some people have indicated 703 00:41:36.490 --> 00:41:41.810 or suggested, but we have now called attention to the fact 704 00:41:41.810 --> 00:41:42.950 that there is an increase 705 00:41:42.950 --> 00:41:45.960 in venereal disease among homosexuals 706 00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:48.940 and Mr. Hutchison says, that proves we should keep the laws. 707 00:41:48.940 --> 00:41:52.200 It proves the reverse, the law should be removed, why? 708 00:41:52.200 --> 00:41:54.110 Because the increase is due to the fact 709 00:41:54.110 --> 00:41:57.630 that many homosexuals hesitate to go 710 00:41:57.630 --> 00:41:59.210 to venereal disease centers 711 00:41:59.210 --> 00:42:02.470 or to their own physicians they don't know the information will 712 00:42:02.470 --> 00:42:06.620 be kept confidential, actually they are discouraged from doing 713 00:42:06.620 --> 00:42:09.040 so with the result of venereal disease increases. 714 00:42:09.040 --> 00:42:12.190 But when we talk about venereal disease among homosexuals again 715 00:42:12.190 --> 00:42:15.170 we're talking about a very small percentage 716 00:42:15.170 --> 00:42:18.100 of the homosexual population. 717 00:42:18.100 --> 00:42:21.130 Government regulation and security programs 718 00:42:21.130 --> 00:42:24.040 in the Armed Services have made second-class citizens 719 00:42:24.040 --> 00:42:27.660 of these people and many fine persons have been dismissed 720 00:42:27.660 --> 00:42:30.910 from employment and stigmatized purely on gossip. 721 00:42:30.910 --> 00:42:34.680 These are other reasons why the law should be changed. 722 00:42:34.680 --> 00:42:37.360 As a deterrent of course, to crime 723 00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:39.230 or violence it does not exist. 724 00:42:39.230 --> 00:42:40.670 The laws don't reduce the number 725 00:42:40.670 --> 00:42:44.090 of homosexuals nor the number of homosexual acts. 726 00:42:44.090 --> 00:42:47.840 As the moral code, there again Mr. Hutchison is confusing 727 00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:51.160 as the law does sin, morals and crime. 728 00:42:51.160 --> 00:42:55.590 The code is a mere codification of prejudices and superstitions 729 00:42:55.590 --> 00:42:58.360 and ancient to booze that no longer exists. 730 00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:01.870 The chief argument, however, against these laws is 731 00:43:01.870 --> 00:43:04.920 that there's a great deal of blackmail, entrapment, 732 00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:09.410 coercion of individuals, many people have committed suicide 733 00:43:09.410 --> 00:43:12.800 because of being involved through blackmail procedures 734 00:43:12.800 --> 00:43:16.170 and this in my opinion is the basic reason why the laws must 735 00:43:16.170 --> 00:43:18.770 be removed from the books. 736 00:43:18.770 --> 00:43:22.110 >> There are many doors that are closed to the homosexual, 737 00:43:22.110 --> 00:43:25.560 government work is closed, teaching is closed. 738 00:43:25.560 --> 00:43:29.050 In fact, if a man is a proven homosexual there are very few 739 00:43:29.050 --> 00:43:31.490 doors that are open. 740 00:43:31.490 --> 00:43:35.410 How about his place of worship, is he rejected here? 741 00:43:35.410 --> 00:43:40.800 Is he by the very existence of his condition sinful? 742 00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:46.690 Here is Rabbi Alvin Fine of Temple Emanuel in San Francisco. 743 00:43:46.690 --> 00:43:50.380 >> The problem of homosexuality is one 744 00:43:50.380 --> 00:43:54.860 of serious concern not only for the individuals involved in it, 745 00:43:54.860 --> 00:43:57.490 but also for the entire community. 746 00:43:57.490 --> 00:44:00.520 It is a problem that bears directly upon the integrity 747 00:44:00.520 --> 00:44:05.170 of family life and the moral foundations of our society. 748 00:44:05.170 --> 00:44:07.660 It is an extremely complex problem 749 00:44:07.660 --> 00:44:11.380 about which we are coming to know more than we used to know, 750 00:44:11.380 --> 00:44:15.240 but not nearly as much as we still need to know. 751 00:44:15.240 --> 00:44:18.820 Neither for the homosexual nor for his family nor 752 00:44:18.820 --> 00:44:23.010 for the community has the condition been cured simply 753 00:44:23.010 --> 00:44:25.530 by invoking moral condemnation 754 00:44:25.530 --> 00:44:30.040 and applying legal prosecution and punishment. 755 00:44:30.040 --> 00:44:33.190 Perhaps the best guide or approach to this problem 756 00:44:33.190 --> 00:44:36.850 from the religious point of view is summed up in the teaching 757 00:44:36.850 --> 00:44:41.350 of Judaism that God does not desire the destruction 758 00:44:41.350 --> 00:44:45.890 of the evildoer, but rather the correction of the evil. 759 00:44:45.890 --> 00:44:49.830 The present day social and legal approach to the control 760 00:44:49.830 --> 00:44:52.660 of homosexuality is based largely 761 00:44:52.660 --> 00:44:55.020 on the moral code of the Bible. 762 00:44:55.020 --> 00:44:58.890 It is my opinion that although the underlying morality 763 00:44:58.890 --> 00:45:03.390 or moral precept remains the same today, 764 00:45:03.390 --> 00:45:06.490 there are significant and enlightened changes 765 00:45:06.490 --> 00:45:10.660 in our attitude toward the homosexual and our approach 766 00:45:10.660 --> 00:45:13.220 to the problem of homosexuality. 767 00:45:13.220 --> 00:45:17.680 The biblical and post-biblical law regarded homosexuality 768 00:45:17.680 --> 00:45:23.030 as immoral, it was, therefore, simply an evil to be punished. 769 00:45:23.030 --> 00:45:26.880 There was no basis then for considering the problem 770 00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:32.510 as one involving a form of pathological behavior. 771 00:45:32.510 --> 00:45:36.150 In brief, it is my interpretation of Judaism 772 00:45:36.150 --> 00:45:41.070 that homosexual practice is still held to be immoral, 773 00:45:41.070 --> 00:45:45.740 but moral problem that it is we should regard and treat it 774 00:45:45.740 --> 00:45:50.050 as a psychological illness rather than as a crime subject 775 00:45:50.050 --> 00:45:53.320 to legal prosecution and punishment. 776 00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:56.840 Finally, I would say that whatever solutions 777 00:45:56.840 --> 00:46:01.800 or remedies we seek and adopt in the treatment and control 778 00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:04.290 of the condition of homosexuality 779 00:46:04.290 --> 00:46:07.500 with our increasing understanding of it, 780 00:46:07.500 --> 00:46:10.470 we must be sure that those remedies 781 00:46:10.470 --> 00:46:15.640 and solutions should not only preserve the moral integrity 782 00:46:15.640 --> 00:46:19.030 of society, but they should also be based 783 00:46:19.030 --> 00:46:23.780 on an enlightened moral concern for the individuals caught 784 00:46:23.780 --> 00:46:27.550 up in the problem of homosexual behavior. 785 00:46:27.550 --> 00:46:30.890 >> The right Reverend James A. Pike, 786 00:46:30.890 --> 00:46:34.170 Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of California and member 787 00:46:34.170 --> 00:46:36.760 of the bar of the United States Supreme Court. 788 00:46:36.760 --> 00:46:39.770 >> Of course, from the point of view 789 00:46:39.770 --> 00:46:44.120 of the church homosexual behavior is not good 790 00:46:44.120 --> 00:46:52.480 or desirable nor God's intended fulfillment for man and hence, 791 00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:56.280 traditionally it has been in the category of sin. 792 00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:59.070 But we've learned much more about human behavior 793 00:46:59.070 --> 00:47:00.950 through the aid of the psychological sciences 794 00:47:00.950 --> 00:47:04.000 and psychiatry and psychoanalysis and we recognize 795 00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:07.830 that very, very often this behavior is compulsive, 796 00:47:07.830 --> 00:47:12.260 that is it is not the exercise of a free decision-making, 797 00:47:12.260 --> 00:47:16.690 it is rather something that is brought upon one 798 00:47:16.690 --> 00:47:18.810 without the capacity of freedom. 799 00:47:18.810 --> 00:47:23.320 And there can be no sin unless there is freedom and therefore, 800 00:47:23.320 --> 00:47:28.350 we do not judge all persons involved in this type 801 00:47:28.350 --> 00:47:31.780 of behavior as sinners, but rather seek to help 802 00:47:31.780 --> 00:47:34.800 through pastoral counseling and referral and collaboration 803 00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:36.720 with referral to in collaboration 804 00:47:36.720 --> 00:47:42.870 with of psychoanalysts and other counselors of this type. 805 00:47:42.870 --> 00:47:47.460 To help in a change it may be 806 00:47:47.460 --> 00:47:51.460 by having helped the person see the basic factors 807 00:47:51.460 --> 00:47:56.040 which have brought about this deviational situation. 808 00:47:56.040 --> 00:48:00.770 This question came up in England in connection 809 00:48:00.770 --> 00:48:05.840 with the Wolfenden report and our Church of England 810 00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:10.220 through its Archbishop declared itself in favor of the features 811 00:48:10.220 --> 00:48:13.410 of the Wolfenden report which would remove the criminal aspect 812 00:48:13.410 --> 00:48:18.150 of free consenting homosexual behavior between adults. 813 00:48:18.150 --> 00:48:21.670 Obviously any duress or any corruption 814 00:48:21.670 --> 00:48:22.900 of young people that's another thing, 815 00:48:22.900 --> 00:48:25.400 but the free consenting act-- 816 00:48:25.400 --> 00:48:27.370 not because the church was changing its mind 817 00:48:27.370 --> 00:48:30.580 and saying homosexual behavior is an alternate way that's just 818 00:48:30.580 --> 00:48:33.760 as good as the heterosexual way. 819 00:48:33.760 --> 00:48:37.350 But because we recognize that not all things that are wrong 820 00:48:37.350 --> 00:48:41.110 or distortions and personality patterns should be crimes 821 00:48:41.110 --> 00:48:45.480 and that there are negative and dangerous aspects 822 00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:48.030 to having certain things as crimes. 823 00:48:48.030 --> 00:48:50.290 As in this field, of course, blackmail, 824 00:48:50.290 --> 00:48:54.320 police corruption and so forth. 825 00:48:54.320 --> 00:49:01.480 The recognition also of the compulsive character of so many 826 00:49:01.480 --> 00:49:05.850 of these instances makes it an inappropriate subject 827 00:49:05.850 --> 00:49:08.970 for criminal handling. 828 00:49:08.970 --> 00:49:10.860 This does not mean that our concern should be any 829 00:49:10.860 --> 00:49:13.720 of the less, it does not mean that we should not seek 830 00:49:13.720 --> 00:49:17.310 to learn more and more to help persons in this plight. 831 00:49:17.310 --> 00:49:22.470 This is a complicated professional field where the use 832 00:49:22.470 --> 00:49:27.730 of the best minds in various professions is called for. 833 00:49:27.730 --> 00:49:32.550 The person who is in this situation is like anyone else 834 00:49:32.550 --> 00:49:37.330 with an illness and should be cared for as such with love 835 00:49:37.330 --> 00:49:41.070 and concern and interest, not casting them aside, 836 00:49:41.070 --> 00:49:46.430 not labeling them as evil any more than we would do 837 00:49:46.430 --> 00:49:49.060 so these days with the alcoholic who is 838 00:49:49.060 --> 00:49:53.230 in a compulsive drinking situation. 839 00:49:53.230 --> 00:49:55.920 The essential hope 840 00:49:55.920 --> 00:50:00.720 of any counseling pattern whether pastoral 841 00:50:00.720 --> 00:50:04.560 or in collaboration with an analyst is to free the person 842 00:50:04.560 --> 00:50:06.560 so they can make decisions. 843 00:50:06.560 --> 00:50:09.240 At that point we would hope 844 00:50:09.240 --> 00:50:12.030 under the right influences he would decide 845 00:50:12.030 --> 00:50:14.350 against this way of life. 846 00:50:14.350 --> 00:50:15.250 But until he is free 847 00:50:15.250 --> 00:50:19.590 so to decide we can't simply simplify the problem 848 00:50:19.590 --> 00:50:22.580 by crying out the word sin. 849 00:50:24.910 --> 00:50:27.310 >> The doctors, the lawyers 850 00:50:27.310 --> 00:50:29.910 and the clergy have all had their say 851 00:50:29.910 --> 00:50:32.840 about the social behavior and moral conscience 852 00:50:32.840 --> 00:50:38.010 of the homosexual, but perhaps no one has asked the most basic 853 00:50:38.010 --> 00:50:40.200 and important question of all, 854 00:50:40.200 --> 00:50:45.710 are homosexuals themselves satisfied with the way they are? 855 00:50:45.710 --> 00:50:49.750 From our observation, I think we'd have to say they are not, 856 00:50:49.750 --> 00:50:52.970 however, opinion is divided on this issue. 857 00:50:52.970 --> 00:50:58.150 Some people-- many homosexuals indeed have known no other 858 00:50:58.150 --> 00:51:01.400 orientation, no other way of life, therefore, 859 00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:04.190 they have maybe no basis to make a judgment 860 00:51:04.190 --> 00:51:07.360 of whether they are or are not satisfied. 861 00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:12.110 However, they are all aware I think of the fact that legal 862 00:51:12.110 --> 00:51:15.800 and moral sanctions are against them throughout their lives, 863 00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:20.580 in their everyday behavior, on their jobs, everywhere. 864 00:51:20.580 --> 00:51:24.180 These people by and large are unable to know 865 00:51:24.180 --> 00:51:29.050 and enjoy the benefits of family and the companionship 866 00:51:29.050 --> 00:51:31.260 which results from that. 867 00:51:31.260 --> 00:51:32.860 They have feelings of inferiority 868 00:51:32.860 --> 00:51:35.770 because of these sanctions against them. 869 00:51:35.770 --> 00:51:39.230 They are labeled security risks by our government, 870 00:51:39.230 --> 00:51:42.900 they are treated as undesirables in the Armed Forces 871 00:51:42.900 --> 00:51:47.140 and given less than honorable discharges from the Armed Forces 872 00:51:47.140 --> 00:51:50.380 if any trace of homosexual orientation 873 00:51:50.380 --> 00:51:54.180 and sometimes even association is discovered. 874 00:51:54.180 --> 00:51:58.750 For instance, a few years ago a large aircraft carrier tied 875 00:51:58.750 --> 00:52:04.560 up at a West Coast port, it had a complement of about 3,000 men 876 00:52:04.560 --> 00:52:08.490 and an officer told me that when that ship docked 300 877 00:52:08.490 --> 00:52:12.090 of them were given less than honorable discharges. 878 00:52:12.090 --> 00:52:18.860 Now I wonder, certainly you can't say that the homosexual 879 00:52:18.860 --> 00:52:20.010 when he has these sanctions 880 00:52:20.010 --> 00:52:24.700 against him is a person satisfied with his condition. 881 00:52:24.700 --> 00:52:28.380 Especially pitiful perhaps is the condition 882 00:52:28.380 --> 00:52:32.500 of the older lonely homosexual, the old anti. 883 00:52:32.500 --> 00:52:36.260 If he hasn't established a number of other values 884 00:52:36.260 --> 00:52:39.860 in his life during his earlier years he can often wind 885 00:52:39.860 --> 00:52:45.710 up in a very lonely and often dejected situation. 886 00:52:45.710 --> 00:52:50.950 In the Mattachine we are seeking acceptance of the homosexual 887 00:52:50.950 --> 00:52:56.370 in society whether we approve of his type of conduct or not, 888 00:52:56.370 --> 00:53:01.860 the fact is he is in our midst and in large numbers. 889 00:53:01.860 --> 00:53:05.900 We hope that by acceptance he may be spared much 890 00:53:05.900 --> 00:53:09.230 of the derision that society now points toward him 891 00:53:09.230 --> 00:53:13.680 and that he may thereby be able to assume his full 892 00:53:13.680 --> 00:53:17.640 and equal place as a human being in the community. 893 00:53:17.640 --> 00:53:19.600 >> Why did you come to see me? 894 00:53:19.600 --> 00:53:24.660 >> I guess to cure it, I want to be like everybody else 895 00:53:24.660 --> 00:53:27.460 and not lead this double life. 896 00:53:27.460 --> 00:53:29.560 It's no fun to have a job 897 00:53:29.560 --> 00:53:31.770 and always worry whether someone is going to find 898 00:53:31.770 --> 00:53:34.040 out that I'm a homosexual. 899 00:53:34.040 --> 00:53:36.660 >> What do you think I can do for you? 900 00:53:36.660 --> 00:53:41.500 >> I don't know, I don't know whether anything can be done. 901 00:53:41.500 --> 00:53:43.020 I've tried dating girls 902 00:53:43.020 --> 00:53:46.940 and it doesn't work, there's no interest. 903 00:53:46.940 --> 00:53:51.090 I suppose it would be the same if you dated a boy. 904 00:53:51.090 --> 00:53:54.550 The trouble is I just can't visualize a cure, 905 00:53:54.550 --> 00:53:56.740 this thing seems too much a part of me. 906 00:53:56.740 --> 00:53:58.500 >> How long has it seemed this way to you? 907 00:53:58.500 --> 00:53:59.600 >> You wouldn't be able tell 908 00:53:59.600 --> 00:54:02.280 that the person you have heard is a homosexual, 909 00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:05.570 his parents don't know it, his neighbors don't know it, 910 00:54:05.570 --> 00:54:08.070 his fellow workers don't know it. 911 00:54:08.070 --> 00:54:09.890 There is one question left 912 00:54:09.890 --> 00:54:12.900 and for parents it will be the most important one, 913 00:54:12.900 --> 00:54:15.560 actually it is a double question. 914 00:54:15.560 --> 00:54:17.640 What can a parent do to prevent his child 915 00:54:17.640 --> 00:54:19.990 from becoming a homosexual 916 00:54:19.990 --> 00:54:23.100 and what should a parent do once it is obvious 917 00:54:23.100 --> 00:54:25.830 that his child is a homosexual? 918 00:54:25.830 --> 00:54:29.680 Again Dr. Karl Bowman. 919 00:54:29.680 --> 00:54:32.250 >> It is possible that homosexuality comes 920 00:54:32.250 --> 00:54:37.740 about from a number of different causes or combination of causes 921 00:54:37.740 --> 00:54:40.550 and that it is not necessarily produced 922 00:54:40.550 --> 00:54:44.550 by the same factors in every individual. 923 00:54:44.550 --> 00:54:50.390 With our lack of knowledge and the many different opinions held 924 00:54:50.390 --> 00:54:54.250 as to the causes of homosexuality, it is obvious 925 00:54:54.250 --> 00:54:57.390 that we cannot come forth with some universal method 926 00:54:57.390 --> 00:55:00.490 of treatment or of prevention. 927 00:55:00.490 --> 00:55:04.580 Most of us feel that it is important for the male child 928 00:55:04.580 --> 00:55:07.940 to have a desirable type of father figure with which 929 00:55:07.940 --> 00:55:14.060 to identify and for the girl to have a suitable mother figure. 930 00:55:14.060 --> 00:55:18.350 Children are all curious, frustrating their desire 931 00:55:18.350 --> 00:55:20.560 for knowledge often results 932 00:55:20.560 --> 00:55:23.750 in their attaching greater emotional significance 933 00:55:23.750 --> 00:55:26.040 to such a subject. 934 00:55:26.040 --> 00:55:30.050 Boys at adolescence are particularly curious 935 00:55:30.050 --> 00:55:32.720 and inclined to experiment. 936 00:55:32.720 --> 00:55:35.810 The mere fact that an adolescent boy has indulged 937 00:55:35.810 --> 00:55:40.390 in a few homosexual experiences does not mean 938 00:55:40.390 --> 00:55:42.940 that he will develop into a homosexual 939 00:55:42.940 --> 00:55:47.710 and that he will not end up with a normal heterosexual life. 940 00:55:47.710 --> 00:55:52.120 For this reason parents should be tolerant and understanding 941 00:55:52.120 --> 00:55:54.000 about his adolescent struggle to work 942 00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:57.080 with his many emotional problems. 943 00:55:57.080 --> 00:56:01.660 If parents are disturbed about apparent homosexual tendencies 944 00:56:01.660 --> 00:56:04.670 on the part of the child, it is appropriate 945 00:56:04.670 --> 00:56:08.520 to consult a psychiatrist, but this should not be done in a way 946 00:56:08.520 --> 00:56:10.940 to upset or disturb the child 947 00:56:10.940 --> 00:56:15.370 and perhaps cause still more emotional conflict. 948 00:56:15.370 --> 00:56:17.540 In treatment we would, of course, 949 00:56:17.540 --> 00:56:22.590 like to turn all homosexuals into complete heterosexuals, 950 00:56:22.590 --> 00:56:24.690 this is usually not possible. 951 00:56:24.690 --> 00:56:29.390 We may be able to help the individual control his behavior 952 00:56:29.390 --> 00:56:33.510 even if we cannot alter his homosexual tendencies. 953 00:56:33.510 --> 00:56:37.080 As Freud has said, we may be able to help him live 954 00:56:37.080 --> 00:56:38.660 with his problem in a way 955 00:56:38.660 --> 00:56:42.060 that will not cause him too much emotional disturbance 956 00:56:42.060 --> 00:56:44.360 and which will prevent his getting 957 00:56:44.360 --> 00:56:47.200 into difficulties with others. 958 00:56:47.200 --> 00:56:51.400 The attitude of parents and friends will be most important 959 00:56:51.400 --> 00:56:55.460 in determining whether a reasonable solution can be 960 00:56:55.460 --> 00:56:56.750 worked out. 961 00:56:56.750 --> 00:57:02.540 If one male out of six is more homosexual and heterosexual 962 00:57:02.540 --> 00:57:06.240 in his overt behavior and if we add those 963 00:57:06.240 --> 00:57:09.290 with repressed homosexual tendencies, 964 00:57:09.290 --> 00:57:13.550 the number of homosexuals will be much greater than this is. 965 00:57:13.550 --> 00:57:17.430 It is clear, therefore, that this is a large problem 966 00:57:17.430 --> 00:57:20.850 and that we are going to have to live with it. 967 00:57:20.850 --> 00:57:24.400 The attitude of some people is to try to treat it 968 00:57:24.400 --> 00:57:28.230 in an entirely punitive way with the idea 969 00:57:28.230 --> 00:57:30.880 that the more severe the punishment 970 00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:35.650 and disgrace the less likely that this condition will occur, 971 00:57:35.650 --> 00:57:38.990 at least as far as overt behavior is concerned. 972 00:57:38.990 --> 00:57:43.490 It is interesting to note, however, that many countries 973 00:57:43.490 --> 00:57:47.690 and cultures have no taboos against homosexuality 974 00:57:47.690 --> 00:57:50.190 and that even in Europe the only places 975 00:57:50.190 --> 00:57:54.050 where one finds ordinary homosexuality a crime is 976 00:57:54.050 --> 00:57:58.700 in communist Europe, West Germany and Great Britain. 977 00:57:58.700 --> 00:58:02.110 We have no evidence that there is less homosexuality 978 00:58:02.110 --> 00:58:05.970 in the countries that have the most restrictive laws. 979 00:58:10.150 --> 00:58:13.620 >> These are the rejected, millions upon millions, 980 00:58:13.620 --> 00:58:18.040 a few of them satisfied, many of them desperately unhappy. 981 00:58:18.040 --> 00:58:19.550 We have brought you some of the facts 982 00:58:19.550 --> 00:58:21.720 and presented some of the arguments. 983 00:58:21.720 --> 00:58:24.840 Perhaps with more facts and more argument will come the 984 00:58:24.840 --> 00:58:27.510 beginnings of understanding? 985 00:58:27.510 --> 00:59:16.390 [ Music ] 986 00:59:16.390 --> 00:59:20.200 >> This is NET National Educational Television.